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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:58 pm 
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Cal wrote:
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The other source is a propaganda site so I won't make any comments on that.


No, but you are quite happy to accept the word of the mainstream media, who - of course - couldn't possibly be propaganda sites. Amirite?

You make me laugh. You're a funny guy. :lol:

Not at all, I asked you for some facts and figures and you give an article from a site that has conflicting reports (which I pointed out) and another that is amateurish, politically motivated, conspiracy rambling.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:25 am 
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David vs Goliath: The Truth About Climate Funding

Here's an interesting graphic that perfectly illustrates the disingenuousness of climate zealots arguing that sceptics are 'massively' funded by fossil fuel donors. Sceptics have known for years that we receive nothing like the unimaginably vast amounts of money that proAGW zealots regularly steal off taxpayers everywhere, but this graphic perfectly illustrates just how ridiculous alarmists' cries of 'foul!' are when the stats are laid out for all to see.

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Fakegate showed how small the Heartland Institute budget is compared to spending on Climate Change science. Here is just one example using US Government figures. I thought a simple graphic would be more helpful than a cartoon here:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:53 pm 
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Am I missing something or are there no actual figures?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:15 pm 
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We will need new energy sources in our lifetimes anyway, simply because oil will keep getting more expensive to the point where is is not a viable energy source as it cannot be extracted without a significant loss of energy and money in process. Even if climate change were not an issue, the building of wind and solar farms, as well as other renewables, would still be hugely important.

How does Cal suppose we continue to run our society on a finite, ever more costly resource?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:18 pm 
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I don't think that graph shows what Cal thinks it shows.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:01 pm 
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Is a response only given in here when there is a link to a statement from an anti climate change PR man available?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:53 pm 
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Meep wrote:
We will need new energy sources in our lifetimes anyway, simply because oil will keep getting more expensive to the point where is is not a viable energy source as it cannot be extracted without a significant loss of energy and money in process. Even if climate change were not an issue, the building of wind and solar farms, as well as other renewables, would still be hugely important.

How does Cal suppose we continue to run our society on a finite, ever more costly resource?


You really need to do some reading-up about shale gas and oil, Nuclear and Thorium power. Don't believe the alarmist bollocks the greenies band about - the world is very, very far from running out of fossil fuels. It's a complete and utter myth, put about solely to support the gloomy warmist agenda of 'peak oil' and force us all into completely inappropriate 'renewables'. The Earth is doing very well for fossil fuels for well beyond the next century.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:36 pm 
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Cal wrote:
Meep wrote:
We will need new energy sources in our lifetimes anyway, simply because oil will keep getting more expensive to the point where is is not a viable energy source as it cannot be extracted without a significant loss of energy and money in process. Even if climate change were not an issue, the building of wind and solar farms, as well as other renewables, would still be hugely important.

How does Cal suppose we continue to run our society on a finite, ever more costly resource?


You really need to do some reading-up about shale gas and oil, Nuclear and Thorium power. Don't believe the alarmist bollocks the greenies band about - the world is very, very far from running out of fossil fuels. It's a complete and utter myth, put about solely to support the gloomy warmist agenda of 'peak oil' and force us all into completely inappropriate 'renewables'. The Earth is doing very well for fossil fuels for well beyond the next century.

Jesus Christ :lol:

You're well and truly into tin foil hat territory now.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:32 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:50 pm 
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Somebody Else's Problem wrote:
**completely hilarious graphic**


Wow. Just. Wow. You really have been suckered if you think your little graphic in any way whatsoever reflects the actuality of the situation.

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Jeremy Grantham, a hedge-fund plutocrat, wrote a cheque for £12 million to the London School of Economics to found an institute named after him, which has since become notorious for its aggressive stance and extreme green statements. Between them, Greenpeace and Worldwide Fund for Nature (WWF) spend nearly a billion a year. WWF spends $68 million a year on ‘public education’ alone. All of this is judged uncontroversial: a matter of education, not propaganda.

...a storm of protest broke recently over the news that one small conservative think-tank called Heartland was proposing to spend just $200,000 in a year on influencing education against climate alarmism. A day later, the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation, with assets of $7.2 billion, gave a grant of $100 million to something called the ClimateWorks Foundation, a pro-wind power organisation, on top of $481 million it gave to the same recipient in 2008. The deep green Sierra Club recently admitted that it took $26 million from the gas industry to lobby against coal.


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'Limited operating budgets'...? You'd be hard put to find any richer 'charities' than WWF, Friends of the Earth or Greenpeace...

Come back when you've done your research.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:52 pm 
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How does that budget compare to the oil companies Cal?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:02 pm 
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In Cal's world, Greenpeace is richer than the oil industry.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:26 pm 
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AKA: Foolish Mortal
Greenpeace revenue: $250 million
WWF revenue: just under $700 million
Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation endowment (wealthiest charitable foundation in the world): $36.7 billion
Wellcome Trust (wealthiest charitable foundation in the UK): $22.9 billion
Exxon Mobil Corporation: $486.429 billion

TL;DR Cal is wrong.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:14 pm 
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Hime123 wrote:
Cal wrote:
Meep wrote:
We will need new energy sources in our lifetimes anyway, simply because oil will keep getting more expensive to the point where is is not a viable energy source as it cannot be extracted without a significant loss of energy and money in process. Even if climate change were not an issue, the building of wind and solar farms, as well as other renewables, would still be hugely important.

How does Cal suppose we continue to run our society on a finite, ever more costly resource?


You really need to do some reading-up about shale gas and oil, Nuclear and Thorium power. Don't believe the alarmist bollocks the greenies band about - the world is very, very far from running out of fossil fuels. It's a complete and utter myth, put about solely to support the gloomy warmist agenda of 'peak oil' and force us all into completely inappropriate 'renewables'. The Earth is doing very well for fossil fuels for well beyond the next century.

Jesus Christ :lol:

You're well and truly into tin foil hat territory now.


Well, no, I agree with Cal on this. Purely from an economic view, as supply runs lower the price rises would force a move to alternative sources of energy, be they harder to extract fossil fuels or, if a nation's policies are sensible, renewable energy sources.

Running out is a virtual impossibility, either of fossil fuels and certainly not of readily accessible energy. It all just a matter of economics.

Now, a sensible national energy policy would be to invest in new energy sources, since companies are generally suffer from short termism, and become not only energy secure but also a world leader in an emerging global high tech industry. Like Germany has for Solar and we sort of have for wind power. Replacing the mix of coal, gas, nuclear and oil power sources with one new technology won't happen, we will need a mix of all sorts of renewable and distributed energy generation as well as fossil fuels for quite a while.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:00 am 
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I agree with everything you have said, unfortunately Cal's arguments seem to boil down to "The government is hiding information, it's a conspiracy!". Sadly the idea that it's all a hoax from the flat earth society has nothing to do with economics.

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Replacing the mix of coal, gas, nuclear and oil power sources with one new technology won't happen, we will need a mix of all sorts of renewable and distributed energy generation as well as fossil fuels for quite a while.

My thoughts exactly, the thing is that power engineering for coal, gas, etc has peaked, we need the investment into renewable as it's relatively new technology. I actually agree with Cal that wind farms are almost useless at the moment, I just can't stand it when people use arguments such as "The maintenance costs are too high" then these same people will champion building a nuclear power station that cost infinitely more to maintain.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:45 am 
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Fm wrote:
Greenpeace revenue: $250 million
WWF revenue: just under $700 million
Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation endowment (wealthiest charitable foundation in the world): $36.7 billion
Wellcome Trust (wealthiest charitable foundation in the UK): $22.9 billion
Exxon Mobil Corporation: $486.429 billion

TL;DR Cal is wrong.


No poppet. You're just too young to realise you've had the wool pulled over your eyes.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:32 am 
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Fm wrote:
Greenpeace revenue: $250 million
WWF revenue: just under $700 million
Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation endowment (wealthiest charitable foundation in the world): $36.7 billion
Wellcome Trust (wealthiest charitable foundation in the UK): $22.9 billion
Exxon Mobil Corporation: $486.429 billion

TL;DR Cal is wrong.


Hilarious. You haven't done any fact checking at all, have you? All you've done is listed what you think the annual turnover is of these various organisations. This tells us nothing about possible contributions, either from public bodies (such as hapless EU taxpayers forced to pay through the nose for the corrupt 'science' of the IPCC or to fund the antics of Greenpace and Friends of the Earth), or from private corporations to the so-called climate debate.

Where is the breakdown showing how much Exxon actually contributes to the mythical 'anti-climate change' cause? I'd very much like to see those figures. Then let me know how much fossil fuel companies pay into pro-AGW green organisations. You might be surprised by what you find.

Tell you what - I'll make it easier for you. Here's a very comprehensive overview of climate funding - who spends what, where it comes from and what side of the debate they are on. You'll need Acrobat Reader to view it.

Have a read. You might actually learn something, instead of blindly quoting meaningless figures in support of your invalid point-of-view.

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Last edited by Cal on Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:48 am 
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Slartibartfast wrote:
Now, a sensible national energy policy would be to invest in new energy sources, since companies are generally suffer from short termism, and become not only energy secure but also a world leader in an emerging global high tech industry. Like Germany has for Solar and we sort of have for wind power.


It's not working out so well for Germany or for Britain. Cuts in subsidies for calamitous 'renewables' have been announced in both the UK and Germany as the true costs of such monumental folly comes home to roost with cash-strapped politicians nervous at rising energy prices (only rising because voters are forced to subsidise these wholly inefficient and inappropriate 'renewables' through their energy bills). Within five years the entire solar/wind charade will have completely imploded - in America, for instance, countless solar panel manufacturers have been laid off, likewise in China (the world's biggest supplier of solar panels - although strangely not very keen on actually using the technology themselves) as companies realise there just isn't public or (more importantly) private demand for useless, inefficient, unreliable technology - and as governments everywhere tighten their belts and cut wasteful subsidies for such nonsense, the situation can only improve for us sceptics.

And, of course, always present, looming still larger in the background, is the unspoken bonanza of shale gas reserves - of which the UK is now confidently forecast to possess upwards of enough cheap, secure home-grown energy to fuel the entire nation comfortably into well beyond the next century. The only thing stopping its wholesale development (and America has shot ahead, as always, with its own shale gas industry and is now paying half the price we pay for its own domestic energy and enjoying, for the first time in a long time, being a net exporter of gas to the rest of the world) are moronic politicians still clinging to an outdated notion of 'renewables' - which is unfortunate for you and I, as the longer Britain refuses to exploit its vast shale gas and oil energy reserves the longer every UK household pays completely artificially high energy bills to subsidise rich land owners with pointless wind turbines in their fields. Something about meeting our 'carbon targets'. It's a catastrophe for common sense and honesty.

Do some research and prove any of that wrong.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:57 pm 
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You do some research that is based on reputable sources, this is your thread!

Anyway, an energy mix encompassing renewable energy is the sensible route. You've gone, via some bizarre reasoning, too far the other way. Cuts have happened across the board so that proves nothing, China is one of the largest producers of renewable energy (Three Gorges Dam, anyone), and in my professional experience, sustainability and renewable energy is incorporated into most new projects (often, admittedly, as PR, but the end result is exactly the same).


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:09 pm 
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Slartibartfast wrote:
Anyway, an energy mix encompassing renewable energy is the sensible route.


Here, I can wholeheartedly agree with you. Don't mistake my climate scepticism for any sort of anti-environmentalism. The two are very different things. I remain a committed environmentalist and I see that small-scale, localised use of 'renewable' energy makes perfect sense on the micro scale. The problem is that in trying to force the application of such nascent technology on the macro scale there has been an appalling waste of public money for very little in return (largely driven by EU doctrine). And there has been a scam of monumental proportions; one you and every household in the UK (and beyond) pays for every time we settle our energy bills.

And none of it is necessary if instead government ditched its wretched climate posturing and embraced a much healthier mix of fossil and renewables, striking the right balance between dependable, secure sources and unproven, inefficient renewable sources.

The transformation to the US energy economy as a result of its pro-shale gas policies has been amazing. Thousand of jobs, cheaper domestic energy bills and a secure, dependable home-grown energy source. It will happen in the UK in time - it is inevitable because in the end necessity will trump the cost and inefficiency of imaginary 'renewables'. Of course, no one will admit they were wrong; there will be no apology for the $billions wasted of taxpayers money chasing 'green' energy. Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth, rent-seekers all, will never admit to their wilful folly, nor will they ever be made to pay for their calculated deceit.

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By 2020 the Government will be handing over £100 million a year in rents to landowners simply for the right to put turbines on their turf. Property agents suggest that each large turbine generates around £40,000 a year risk-free for the landowner.

The Earl of Moray is reported to rake in nearly £2 million a year from his wind farm in Perthshire; the Duke of Roxburghe is expected to make £1.5 million a year from his development in the Lammermuir Hills. The Duke of Gloucester has given West Coast Energy permission for a scheme on his Northamptonshire estate that could generate £3 million over 25 years. Even the Prime Minister’s father-in-law, Sir Reginald Sheffield, is in on it, making £1,000 a day in rent in Lincolnshire. It’s enough for a peasants’ revolt, but all the landowners seem to care about is whether the blades will interfere with their pheasants.

What is astonishing about this money, financed by huge government subsidies, is just how little the landlords have to do. A mansion tax would not just affect those with inherited homes but those who have bought with the taxed proceeds of hard work. If ministers want to penalise the acquisition of huge sums by luck rather than judgment, they should be looking at wind energy rather than the housing market.

Perhaps even these undeserved gains (akin to the agricultural subsidies the same landowners have for years pocketed from Brussels) would be acceptable if they provided Britain with its most cost-effective, sustainable and efficient energy source and generated British jobs for British workers.

But wind farms fail on all these counts. Under the renewable energy obligation, electricity firms have to buy a percentage of their power from renewable sources. They then hand the extra cost, currently £1.4 billion a year but as much as £10 billion by 2020, on to consumers. It’s a green tax, only it doesn’t show up on your tax bill but your utilities bill. The Government may argue that, having signed up to European targets for reducing greenhouse gases, the only way to meet them is with wind farms. But they are more expensive than other power sources and even the turbines aren’t manufactured in Britain any more. [...]


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