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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:51 am 
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Igor wrote:
Would US immigration policy ever actually let this happen?


Immigration policy changes over time; what is the stance today (anti) may not necessarily be the case in 20 or more years' time. A hundred years ago, they at least didn't mind it, and it was therefore relatively easy to migrate to America. As this century wears on, with birth rates continuing to fall, with baby boomers needing care (before pretty much all of them popping their clogs by the 2050s), and with the citizen work force likely to become smaller than at any time following World War 2, immigration policy in the US is probably going to be turned on its head. This may be the case across the developed world, in fact, but the US has a ready source of willing migrants on its doorstep, unlike western Europe which will have to look well beyond its own borders.


Last edited by Alvin Flummux on Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:54 am 
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All that assumes that the majority of the “ethnic” Mexican population in the Southern US states not only desire to become part of Mexico again but that their children, grandchildren or great (etc) grandchildren will do as well. As time goes on (because Mexico is not getting those states any time soon) the ethnic Mexican population is going to become more Americanised and is likely to disperse more across the United States.

Of course if the USA goes into a downward spiral and Mexico improves beyond recognition, the people might decide being Mexican is a better bet. It would certainly be amusing to see Americans trying to sneak into Mexico to obtain jobs. ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:11 am 
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Moggy wrote:
All that assumes that the majority of the “ethnic” Mexican population in the Southern US states not only desire to become part of Mexico again but that their children, grandchildren or great (etc) grandchildren will do as well. As time goes on (because Mexico is not getting those states any time soon) the ethnic Mexican population is going to become more Americanised and is likely to disperse more across the United States.


The Mexican population is already dispersing across the country; even up in Ohio, construction companies looking to keep costs low will hire teams of Mexican builders. You can also commonly find Mexicans working in stores and fast-food joints. Enterprising ones will open restaurants (and damn good restaurants they are too). They're already all over the place.

But even as those migrants head into the continental interior, there are just as many who are much more inclined to dwell within the border states (legally or otherwise), because they don't want to stray far from the homeland, and more often because they want to be as close to their families and friends back home as they can.

A lot of Mexicans will be Americanised, and a lot may not want to hold onto their cultural identity, that's inevitable. Where their populations are at their most dense (i.e. the border states), however, Mexico is going to increasingly dominate the cultural landscape, and it will be in those areas where you will find Mexican-Americans with close attachments to the motherland, whose allegiances will err on the side of the Sombrero rather than the Stetson.


Last edited by Alvin Flummux on Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:11 am 
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Alvin Flummux wrote:
Good post, I enjoyed reading that. :)

When the border states become so saturated with migrants that they are Mexican in all but name, do you not think that the cultural influence might be so overwhelming that, beyond just electing pro-Mexican officials, perhaps at least elements of the Mexican political system itself might bleed into these states? It would largely be a by-product of ongoing demographic trends, the long-term movements of people, with migrants who feel that they are Mexican despite living in another country across the border gradually importing their own political and other societal structures as the density of the migrant population increases.

Could that happen? It would greatly strengthen the arguments of Mexican territorial reclamation groups, which are sure to grow larger and more vocal over the course of the century.

All that said though, no maps will have a chance of being re-drawn until Mexico's internal struggles are put to bed. How that can happen without the USA and Mexico legalising and regulating at least some of those presently-illegal drugs, though, I just don't know.


I think you're absolutely right, Alvin. Whilst I'm certainly no expert on the Mexican political system, I doubt it would hold much sway over the political life of US border states. I think, as you pointed out, the most important factor is that of culture. More specifically, Mexican vs US. If current US policies favouring separation (there's a very interesting debate as to the effect of the attempted 'walling-off' of the Mexican border) and the singling out of Hispanic communities continues, I think we're only going to see more US citizens of Mexican descent identifying more with their Mexican heritage than with their US citizenship. Ironically, the 'victimisation' of Hispanic communities could lead to border states becoming more and more 'Mexican' (I realise I'm using a lot of apostrophes, here. Apologies).

Whilst, much like in the EU, immigration is a major concern and much contemporary political action is aimed at limiting its effects, the fact remains that the US is an incredibly sparsely-populated country, and, like in most of the Western world, it's population growth is slowing (I'm a great sceptic of all these apocalyptic predictions linked to 'explosive population growth'). We already saw the importance of low-wage immigrant communities to lcal US economies last year when (I forget in which state - possibly South Carolina/Tennessee?) fruit crops were left rotting in fields after a mass outflow of Hispanics (illegal AND legal) with the passing of 'stop-and-search' laws that basically meant you could be pulled over and forced to show ID for simply looking a little bit Mexican.

The financial crisis may have slowed the process, but in the next half a century or so, America is going to have to work to try and ATTRACT immigrants to secure its economy can keep running. Could this lead to profound demographic and policy shifts favouring Mexico? Its impossible to tell, but in my opinion, quite possibly. I don't know if that answers your question, Igor. Sorry!

From your post, Alvin, it sounds like you've already read his stuff, but (despite being heavily American-leaning and, as the Anonymous arse-raping of his company Stratfor would lead me to believe, a right dodgy geeza) George Friedman has written some interesting stuff on this matter. Worth checking out if you've not.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:53 am 
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Alvin Flummux wrote:
Moggy wrote:
All that assumes that the majority of the “ethnic” Mexican population in the Southern US states not only desire to become part of Mexico again but that their children, grandchildren or great (etc) grandchildren will do as well. As time goes on (because Mexico is not getting those states any time soon) the ethnic Mexican population is going to become more Americanised and is likely to disperse more across the United States.


The Mexican population is already dispersing across the country; even up in Ohio, construction companies looking to keep costs low will hire teams of Mexican builders. You can also commonly find Mexicans working in stores and fast-food joints. Enterprising ones will open restaurants (and damn good restaurants they are too). They're already all over the place.

But even as those migrants head into the continental interior, there are just as many who are much more inclined to dwell within the border states (legally or otherwise), because they don't want to stray far from the homeland, and more often because they want to be as close to their families and friends back home as they can.

A lot of Mexicans will be Americanised, and a lot may not want to hold onto their cultural identity, that's inevitable. Where their populations are at their most dense (i.e. the border states), however, Mexico is going to increasingly dominate the cultural landscape, and it will be in those areas where you will find Mexican-Americans with close attachments to the motherland, whose allegiances will err on the side of the Sombrero rather than the Stetson.


I agree, but I was thinking more of the future. In 100 years (because I don't see America falling to the level of Mexico any sooner) those Mexican populations will have different ideas to those living today.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:58 am 
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http://www.futuretimeline.net/21stcentu ... -territory

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:34 am 
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http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2 ... pe=article


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:35 am 
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Oh dear god...


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:45 am 
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I see the point he's trying to make.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:53 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:54 am 
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I didn't say I agreed with it!

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strut moves on dance floor -> merk bint upon arrival -> go back to dancing.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:49 am 
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Wow.

It's like he genuinely believes that Argentina are the victims. Yeah there were diplomatic negotiations at one point...then they strawberry floating invaded! :fp:

And yeah, if we discover oil then of course we're going to take steps to protect it, nothing subtle or underhanded about it. America does exactly the same thing.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:17 am 
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To be fair, the inhabitants of that place are the only ones that should really have a say.

With regards to Oil, I dont see what an archipelago close to Argentina has anything to do with the UK. The Oil should be managed by the country that is most near.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:19 am 
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Lagamorph wrote:
Wow.

It's like he genuinely believes that Argentina are the victims. Yeah there were diplomatic negotiations at one point...then they strawberry floating invaded! :fp:

And yeah, if we discover oil then of course we're going to take steps to protect it, nothing subtle or underhanded about it. America does exactly the same thing.


Uhmm I do not agree... Malta has the same situation with Libya, if you are taking oil from other territories its as good as stealing as far as Im concerned

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:20 am 
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Drej wrote:
To be fair, the inhabitants of that place are the only ones that should really have a say.

With regards to Oil, I dont see what an archipelago close to Argentina has anything to do with the UK. The Oil should be managed by the country that is most near.

That would be Britain then since the Falklands are part of us and the oil is far closer to the Falklands than Argentina.

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Last edited by Lagamorph on Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:22 am 
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Drej wrote:
To be fair, the inhabitants of that place are the only ones that should really have a say.

With regards to Oil, I dont see what an archipelago close to Argentina has anything to do with the UK. The Oil should be managed by the country that is most near.


According to idiots, because there's only 3000 inhabitants they don't get to self determine.... That and they all want to be British. So because it's a British territory the oil is British too.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:08 am 
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Drej wrote:
To be fair, the inhabitants of that place are the only ones that should really have a say.

With regards to Oil, I dont see what an archipelago close to Argentina has anything to do with the UK. The Oil should be managed by the country that is most near.


According to idiots, because there's only 3000 inhabitants they don't get to self determine.... That and they all want to be British. So because it's a British territory the oil is British too.


I dont really see how a territory close to south america can be considered british. I dont really agree with being a british colony, Thankfully Malta chose to terminate its agreement with the British empire (after pushing for integration... :?: ) had we achieved integration, I wonder if I would have considered myself to be Birtish? I dont think so...

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:08 am 
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Lagamorph wrote:
Drej wrote:
To be fair, the inhabitants of that place are the only ones that should really have a say.

With regards to Oil, I dont see what an archipelago close to Argentina has anything to do with the UK. The Oil should be managed by the country that is most near.

That would be Britain then since the Falklands are part of us and the oil is far closer to the Falklands than Argentina.


Yes but not to Britain...

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:29 am 
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Drej wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:
Drej wrote:
To be fair, the inhabitants of that place are the only ones that should really have a say.

With regards to Oil, I dont see what an archipelago close to Argentina has anything to do with the UK. The Oil should be managed by the country that is most near.

That would be Britain then since the Falklands are part of us and the oil is far closer to the Falklands than Argentina.


Yes but not to Britain...

I haven't got much time right now, so I'll just leave this. :fp:


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:29 am 
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karl_fletcher wrote:
http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/feb/23/sean-penn-falklands-malvinas-diplomacy-interrupted?cat=commentisfree&type=article


I think that the remarks referring to the Falkland War as a "diversion" are extremely distasteful.


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