Ukraine illegally invaded by Putin's Russia

Moggy wrote:

VlaSoul wrote:There are cases where authoritarian states have proven themselves superior to the majority of democracies, like Cuba,

How did I miss this one?

Christ alive, what an opinion

Preezy wrote:

VlaSoul wrote:There are cases where authoritarian states have proven themselves superior to the majority of democracies, like Cuba,

How did I miss this one?

Christ alive, what an opinion

His heart is in Havana. ♫

Preezy wrote:

Moggy wrote:

VlaSoul wrote:There are cases where authoritarian states have proven themselves superior to the majority of democracies, like Cuba,

How did I miss this one?

Christ alive, what an opinion

I gather that the Cuban medical scene is kind of excellent, its doctors in demand all over the world.

Might be the only thing the country has going for it.

Alvin Flummux wrote:

Preezy wrote:

Moggy wrote:

VlaSoul wrote:There are cases where authoritarian states have proven themselves superior to the majority of democracies, like Cuba,

How did I miss this one?

Christ alive, what an opinion

I gather that the Cuban medical scene is kind of excellent, its doctors in demand all over the world.

Might be the only thing the country has going for it.

Nah the Cubans are also excellent at repairing old 1950s American cars.

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:

Alvin Flummux wrote:

Preezy wrote:

Moggy wrote:

VlaSoul wrote:There are cases where authoritarian states have proven themselves superior to the majority of democracies, like Cuba,

How did I miss this one?

Christ alive, what an opinion

I gather that the Cuban medical scene is kind of excellent, its doctors in demand all over the world.

Might be the only thing the country has going for it.

Nah the Cubans are also excellent at repairing old 1950s American cars.

Good at cigars and rum too.

Rocsteady wrote:This reads as so painfully naive to me that I'm not sure how to respond. To equate a nation where you can summarily be thrown in prison for speaking out, tortured, disappeared, family members punished through no fault of their own, endemic corruption beyond anything imaginable in current Ukraine, as equal to a flawed democratic state... how? In what way is Russia running a superior system that makes up for the aforementioned?

Ukraine does have strong nationalist tendencies, with some neo-nazi elements in more prominent positions than is desirable. That's the case for a lot of Eastern Europe (EE) and Russia, unfortunately. Not sure how that's an argument that authoritarianism is equal to the current system where they voted in the relatively more liberal Zelensky with the vast majority of the vote against the incumbent.

Cuba is a model in a couple of metrics and nothing more. Has it proven itself superior to any western European democracy? Not sure I would've liked to be gay there for any of the past decades. Or have a penchant for food with multiple ingredients. Or have a desire to be one of any number of professions that aren't viable or not allowed. gooseberry fool, you still can't even become a pro boxer there.

I never claimed that the russian autocratic system is superior. My point is more I have some doubts about the future of a NATO backed democratic ukraine.
Cuba is by no means a model state and has a lot of issues, no one can deny that, but they created a nation without homelessness where everyone has access to high quality healthcare and a regular, if small, supply of food (most of the time); and they did this while being sanctioned by all of their neighbors. Yes, it is not a better place to live than a western european/north american democracy, but in many respects they are superior to the american supported democracies that surround them, and to really any democracies outside of the global north. They certainly managed to build a much more equitable nation than Batista's Cuba. There is a better average QOL in Cuba than in Jamaica, Brazil, Haiti, Columbia, Mexico, and the Dominican Republic, among others. Cuba has also been liberalising since the last years of Castro's reign.

Moggy wrote:

VlaSoul wrote:Even Gaddaffi for his many, many flaws and rights abuses must be given credit for building what was one of the most fair states to ever exist in Africa.

Yeah, if you ignore the rape, the murder, the brutal suppression of human rights, the absolute poverty, the lack of democracy and the terrorism, then Gaddaffi was basically the nicest man that ever lived.

Libya and the libyan people were in a much better state under gadaffi than they were before and after, but he is very hard to defend for a huge list of reasons. It's worth saying that Libya was the site of a massive open slave trade that operated in above ground markets before gadaffi, but this was abolished by him.

Alvin Flummux wrote:

Preezy wrote:

Moggy wrote:

VlaSoul wrote:There are cases where authoritarian states have proven themselves superior to the majority of democracies, like Cuba,

How did I miss this one?

Christ alive, what an opinion

I gather that the Cuban medical scene is kind of excellent, its doctors in demand all over the world.

Might be the only thing the country has going for it.

What a paradise!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48214513

"Democracy might not be perfect but at least we're allowed to shitpost on forums" - JFK

VlaSoul wrote:It's worth saying that Libya was the site of a massive open slave trade that operated in above ground markets before gadaffi, but this was abolished by him.

If only the women he kept as sex slaves had informed him of the abolition of slavery!

As an aside, this was the letter I sent to my MP towards the end of January.

Dear Neil Coyle,

I am writing to you to provide my support for the people of Ukraine being able to determine their country's own place in the world opposed to allowing Vladamir Putin to play tyrant to prop up his autocratic regime in Russia.

I thought Kier Starmer's article in the Telegraph was excellent, and I'm sure a far cry from the reaction of the previous Labour leader.

I encourage you to support the proposals laid out by Kier Starmer in his article as well as providing as much support as possible to Ukraine including required defensive military hardware (but not the deployment of front-line UK troops).

Kind Regards

VlaSoul wrote:It's worth saying that Libya was the site of a massive open slave trade that operated in above ground markets before gadaffi, but this was abolished by him.

It's not really though, is it?

Rocsteady wrote:a nation where you can summarily be thrown in prison for speaking out, tortured, disappeared, family members punished through no fault of their own, endemic corruption beyond anything imaginable in current Ukraine

The United Kingdom?

Rocsteady wrote:In what way is Russia running a superior system that makes up for the aforementioned?

oh right

Stugene wrote:

Rocsteady wrote:a nation where you can summarily be thrown in prison for speaking out, tortured, disappeared, family members punished through no fault of their own, endemic corruption beyond anything imaginable in current Ukraine

The United Kingdom?

Rocsteady wrote:In what way is Russia running a superior system that makes up for the aforementioned?

oh right

The UK isn't great and is in real danger of getting much worse.

But it's laughable to compare it in any way to Russia.

Stunned - stunned! - that this was all a big bluff and Putin got the West to do what he wanted.

Obviously the threat of talking to Boris and Liz Truss was enough for Russia to start stepping down. The ultimate deterrent.

speedboatchase wrote:Stunned - stunned! - that this was all a big bluff and Putin got the West to do what he wanted.

Taking Russia's word about troop draw down, or anything for that matter, at face value is certainly an interesting position.

But even if they are that doesn't mean their actions were a bluff and I'm not sure what it is the West has done that falls into the category of 'what Putin wanted'.

Even if Russia does withdraw their troops I seriously doubt it was all "just scheduled manoeuvres and just a massive Putin troll". More likely Putin realised it wouldn't be a quick and easy march in like in Crimea and decided to just backpedal while trying to make himself look good and everyone else bad.

What the actual strawberry float is going on with this at the moment? Keep hearing conflicting things about places being shelled?

Squinty wrote:What the actual strawberry float is going on with this at the moment? Keep hearing conflicting things about places being shelled?

There are reports about shelling in the Donbas region but I can't work out a) who did what and when and b) does this happen all the time there anyway as that area has been an issue for a while.

It's the Russians pretending to be Ukrainian separatists trying to invoke counter battery fire so they can claim there's a genocide and then have the pretext for an invasion (or for domestic propaganda purposes)

It's the playbook from 2008.