The Football Thread 2011/12

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Herdanos
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PostRe: The Football Thread 2011/12 - Congrats Chelsea!
by Herdanos » Sun May 20, 2012 1:58 am

How is that a cop out? Your last comment suggested that you're of the opinion that creating chances makes you somehow more worthy of success than actually finishing them off. Which is nonsense.

EDIT: that was at BlueEyes not PMM

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PaperMacheMario
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PostRe: The Football Thread 2011/12 - Congrats Chelsea!
by PaperMacheMario » Sun May 20, 2012 1:59 am

Dan. wrote:How is that a cop out? Your last comment suggested that you're of the opinion that creating chances makes you somehow more worthy of success than actually finishing them off. Which is nonsense.

EDIT: that was at BlueEyes not PMM


jamcc take note.

HSH28 wrote:Sounds what you really need is a sense of humour.
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Spindash
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PostRe: The Football Thread 2011/12 - Congrats Chelsea!
by Spindash » Sun May 20, 2012 2:01 am

Blue Eyes wrote:Football is weird now. Certainly when it comes to the Champions League. I don't want to decry the achievements of Man City and Chelsea but surely their fans must feel a bit empty considering the way they've won their titles. They've almost proved that money is all that matters, so what does that say about any team in the world? As long as you can invest in the recognised and best players in the world with the near infinite wealth of owners then you probably should win major trophies all the time.
Financial fair play rules can't come soon enough for me.


I can assure you there was no empty feeling when Yaya scored at Wembley and Aguero scored against QPR.

Do you feel empty now West Ham have been promoted?

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PostRe: The Football Thread 2011/12 - Congrats Chelsea!
by Ginga » Sun May 20, 2012 2:07 am

Blue Eyes wrote:I read all of that and ended up thinking you're the precious one *hic*


In fairness, you'd need to read four years of posts to understand my ire with DML.

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PostRe: The Football Thread 2011/12 - Congrats Chelsea!
by Blue Eyes » Sun May 20, 2012 2:09 am

Spindash wrote:
Blue Eyes wrote:Football is weird now. Certainly when it comes to the Champions League. I don't want to decry the achievements of Man City and Chelsea but surely their fans must feel a bit empty considering the way they've won their titles. They've almost proved that money is all that matters, so what does that say about any team in the world? As long as you can invest in the recognised and best players in the world with the near infinite wealth of owners then you probably should win major trophies all the time.
Financial fair play rules can't come soon enough for me.


I can assure you there was no empty feeling when Yaya scored at Wembley and Aguero scored against QPR.

Do you feel empty now West Ham have been promoted?

Course not. I'm elated. To be honest, I was even more excited last Sunday when City won the league. The drama was unwriteable, which ain't a word but you know what I mean. I just mean that a team coming from nowhere to being one of the best in the world in such a short space of time due to billionaire ownership doesn't seem quite right. I'm not out to troll anyone here.

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PostRe: The Football Thread 2011/12 - Congrats Chelsea!
by chalkitdown » Sun May 20, 2012 2:25 am

Just read the last 20 pages. Thanks Ginga for the entertainment. An amazing read.

Denny :wub:
Pancake :wub:
Preezy :wub:
Papermachemario :wub:
Zellery :wub:
Cuttooth :wub:

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PostRe: The Football Thread 2011/12 - Congrats Chelsea!
by Ginga » Sun May 20, 2012 3:14 am

Superking wrote:Starting to get a little tied of this idea of one team deserving to win a game just because they play the pretty way. Sure we'd all prefer teams to play football the right way but the fact is the name of the game is to score more goals than the opposition and if you don't manage that then you clearly don't deserve to win (potential retarded goal line decisions notwithstanding).


I replied, not necessarily directly to SuperKing, just that he touched on a point I wanted to make but I'll save the scrolling for those no interested in the debate with a spoiler box.

The game went to penalties, though. Chelsea didn't score more than Bayern during 120 minutes, so why does it mean that only Bayern didn't deserve to win? I'm just of the opinion that if you create more chances, take more shots and do more with the ball than your opponents, you're the one that deserves to win.

Most people accept this as fact - when Manchester City beat a Manchester United side that had no shots on goal, everyone said it was deserved. If United had managed to get off a shot and scored whilst everything else about that match remained the same, would they have deserved a point? I'm just struggling with the concept that from all the factors that decide whether a ball hits a post or hits the net, some people are claiming it's entirely down to the individual.

The thinking seems to punish those taking chances, which I believe is wrong. I can't be the only one that thought Chelsea's name was on the trophy when Messi hit the bar? I know it's a daft statement but there has been some seemingly miraculous moments throughout this campaign. I'm not denying there's blood, sweat and tears attributed to the success, there has to be, but when when Napoli conspire to throw away a two-goal lead, when Barca don't beat 10-men at home (with 46 shots!) while Messi misses a penalty, when Bayern take 34 shots and only score in the last seven minutes...before Chelsea net from their first corner...then Munich fail to score a penalty in extra-time and the deciding penalty in the shootout hits the post and rolls along the line, you must start to think that they've had a very fortunate series of outcomes in circumstances where they weren't always in control.

Originally, I just felt Denster was being obtuse. I haven't heard many people of the opinion that Chelsea deserved to win all of their games in the knock-out stages, so my reply was a baffled shake of the head. I also stumbled across that gif and thought it was funny. I didn't, however, expect such a prolonged, protracted argument over the merits of Chelsea's win because I don't really mind nor care. I'm becoming more and more disillusioned with football as a whole, people seem to be enjoying it less and less. Money's corrupted what little dignity it had left and I'd guess the real reason teams have taken to "parking the bus" is because know how vital it is to get results that guarantee a cash injection, so less risks are taken overall. I grew up with Madrid sides that sacked managers who won titles the "wrong way".

I think that's detrimental to the game because if teams do rightly copy those that are successful, what's to stop more clubs from adopting Craig Levein's awful 4-6-0 formation if means constantly frustrating sides considered superior? I just feel we're getting further and further away from the entertainment aspect of football, the simplicity of 11 men taking on another 11 guys to try and prove who's better. Instead, too many applaud those that try to injure or hurt the most creative players.

I just think there's more to football than simply winning. If there wasn't, there'd be no "wee" clubs at every level or guys paying teams to let them play. It's nice to win - and I'm taking nothing away from the fans - I just think after all this time, to win it without ever dominating or outplaying the opposition, must feel slightly hollow. I'm not sure what it really proves to anyone.

People are far too quick to pass judgement in this thread. Barely catch sight of a player or see his worst games and he's labelled "shite" and written off for good. I was laughed at, in much the same way I am now, when I said Darren Fletcher would become vital to Manchester United, when he was only 20. He had a lot of raw potential and was doing things you can't really teach but perhaps without the physicality or confidence he'd need. We've got time to pick our words before we post, so why would anyone want to be so narrow-minded, especially about things that are so subjective - just because I may not agree with someone doesn't mean I don't find their argument to be engaging.


No problem, Chalky. Who wants a love-in, anyway?

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Ario
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PostRe: The Football Thread 2011/12 - Congrats Chelsea!
by Ario » Sun May 20, 2012 3:17 am

I completely agree with what you've said Ginga, tonights game demonstrated the exact opposite of what I love about football.

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PostRe: The Football Thread 2011/12 - Congrats Chelsea!
by Luboluke » Sun May 20, 2012 3:25 am

Don't understand why people refer to Chelsea's performances this season as brilliant defensive displays. Good defending is winning the ball cleanly, marking your opponent out of the game, reading the game to intercept a pass etc. I have as much respect for good defending as anyone else. The fact is though, Chelsea didn't do an awful lot of those things, they didn't do an awful lot of anything, they just kept as many bodies as they could in their own half for as long as they could - to restrict Bayern's attacking space and stop them from creating chances. They didn't play football tonight, they stopped Bayern from playing it - that's why I don't think they 'deserve' to be European champions, and as I said before, Bayern et al don't deserve it much more because they didn't cut the mustard and should have put Chelsea away.

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PostRe: The Football Thread 2011/12 - Congrats Chelsea!
by Denster » Sun May 20, 2012 3:53 am

I don't see the problems personally. Chelsea haven't nullified Barca or Bayern. The restricted them but both teams created chances. They lost because of their own profligacy combined with Chelsea's obdurate defence. Chelse used this against Barca previously with some success as did Inter. It's not going to win you every game and Chelsea don't play this way all the time but with the restrictions in place (ten men and defending a lead at the nou camp and missing two defenders and a ballwinning marauding midfielder against Bayern) who expected them to play any different. If they gone toe to toe with Barca - they'd have been murdered. Instead they used an effective strategy to give themselves a chance. They were aided in both cases by the inabilty of both to make their dominance of posession and numerous chances pay off.

No has mentioned Napoli who were 3-1 up as being deserving (despite their being the only team to win a game against Chelsea in the knockout stages) or that Chelsea were defensive in the second leg that they were brilliant in. Funny that.

Chelsea did a professional job tonight and showed real bottle and deseire to come back into. Epitomised by DDA and his refusal to bow out on the losing side. I applaud them for that never say die attitude and it draws comparisons with the Pool in 2005 (who were even more outplayed for an hour and dead and buried) and ourselves in 99 when we only came into the game for the last 15 minutes (and Bayern paid for their profligacy then, too). Worthy winners, not the prettiest but worthy.

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Ario
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PostRe: The Football Thread 2011/12 - Congrats Chelsea!
by Ario » Sun May 20, 2012 3:57 am

If everyone played football like that, no one would watch football. The top level of the sport should be a spectacle.

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PostRe: The Football Thread 2011/12 - Congrats Chelsea!
by Denster » Sun May 20, 2012 4:03 am

But that's just it - no one defending Chelsea is advocating that. We just admire defensive football as well as attacking. No one is saying every team should play like that all the time. God forbid.

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PostRe: The Football Thread 2011/12 - Congrats Chelsea!
by PES Fan » Sun May 20, 2012 4:16 am

Ario wrote:If everyone played football like that, no one would watch football. The top level of the sport should be a spectacle.


Why not?

I enjoyed Bayern trying to figure out how to break them down, whilst Chelsea trying to defend.

If lesser teams didn't play like that then they wouldn't stand a chance.

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PostRe: The Football Thread 2011/12 - Congrats Chelsea!
by Ginga » Sun May 20, 2012 4:59 am

PES Fan wrote:
Ario wrote:If everyone played football like that, no one would watch football. The top level of the sport should be a spectacle.


Why not?

I enjoyed Bayern trying to figure out how to break them down, whilst Chelsea trying to defend.

If lesser teams didn't play like that then they wouldn't stand a chance.


Are you saying Chelsea are a lesser team? It's supposed to be the final between the two best sides in Europe.

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PostRe: The Football Thread 2011/12 - Congrats Chelsea!
by Nova » Sun May 20, 2012 6:10 am

Ginga wrote:
PES Fan wrote:
Ario wrote:If everyone played football like that, no one would watch football. The top level of the sport should be a spectacle.


Why not?

I enjoyed Bayern trying to figure out how to break them down, whilst Chelsea trying to defend.

If lesser teams didn't play like that then they wouldn't stand a chance.


Are you saying Chelsea are a lesser team? It's supposed to be the final between the two best sides in Europe.


Come on now, you know it was a cup tournament, and that often the best two sides in Europe aren't in the Final. That Chelsea team (with Kalou and Bertrand on the wings) was a far inferior side technically to Bayern Munich. People expect a team who is worse than their opposition, more or less playing away from home, to turn up and try and play with flair and magic?

What a load of nonsense. For all of those who honestly couldn't find last night entertaining (or God forbid every moron's favourite phrase 'anti-football', then they might as well watch a sport where there are only offensive tactics. Cup finals are very often cagey affairs, this one was more interesting than that, and showed the unpredictability of tournament play.

Honestly, who wants to see the best team win everything every year? That would be the worst thing possible for football, IMO.

Goodness me. All this 'don't deserve it' stuff. Guardiola said it best when he said that Chelsea deserved to win because they scored more goals in the first leg against Barca. That's what it boils down to, and that's what makes football interesting.

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PostRe: The Football Thread 2011/12 - Congrats Chelsea!
by Luboluke » Sun May 20, 2012 6:56 am

Di Matteo could have played Malouda and Sturridge on the wings if he wanted to. Let's be honest, with or without the suspensions his tactics were always going to be the same. Don't you think Chelsea are the kind of time who should always try to play with flair and magic, with the money they spend on transfers and wages? What would have made it a good final is if Chelsea came out swinging despite being the underdogs and came away with a win, or even if they were on the backfoot for most of the game but made some superb challenges and last ditch blocks, then got forward whenever they could and bang a few goals in to win in normal time. But instead they slapped ten men behind the ball, rode their luck and scored a set piece, and won it on penalties, and they deserved it. I thought penalties were a lottery?

Does no one else think its quite sad that this is supposed to be the highest level of competition in club football, the beautiful game, and yet one of the competitors did not give a seconds thought to the spectacle, the entertainment, the enjoyment of the fans, only winning. Is that all football is about anymore? And you lot are happy with it?

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PostRe: The Football Thread 2011/12 - Congrats Chelsea!
by Harry Ola » Sun May 20, 2012 6:57 am

It was a fascinating game and I did not know which way I wanted it to go, but then Muller got substituted and was celebrating as he went off. In that very moment I thought about 1999 and I wanted Chelsea to come back. You would have thought that after that night in Barcelona they would have learnt not to celebrate too soon. Wonderful bullet header from Drogba and great saves in the shootout from Cech. I feel bad for Spurs though.

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PostRe: The Football Thread 2011/12 - Congrats Chelsea!
by Harry Ola » Sun May 20, 2012 7:13 am

Sorry if already posted (there's was quite a lot to wade through), but the Mail are saying United have signed a midfielder.

Nick Powell, 18 years old, from Crewe for £4m.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2146845/Great-expectations-Fergie-puts-faith-youth-4m-Crewes-Powell.html

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PostRe: The Football Thread 2011/12 - Congrats Chelsea!
by Luboluke » Sun May 20, 2012 7:14 am

Just a quick point, I know I should shut up about it, but hear me out. Would anyone be congratulating Chelsea if they had lost tonight, would we say they defended well and that they played bravely? No, because they played shite, and if Robben had scored that penalty, or if Bayerns finishing had been better, or if they had a man on the near post at that corner, we'd all have said as much. And their fans would be saying what a useless bunch of overpaid, gutless wankers they were for barely creating a single opportunity on goal in the CL final. But none of those things did happen, so they deserved it, and a big pat on the back for a team that played shite.

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PostRe: The Football Thread 2011/12 - Congrats Chelsea!
by Denster » Sun May 20, 2012 7:39 am

Saying they played shite is absolute bollocks. If they'd played shite they would have lost. You, Ginga and Dblock should get together and write a bumper book of bullshit. Call it "When we think the wrong team won!"


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