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Do any of you know how to experience joy

Herdanos wrote:Do any of you know how to experience joy

Usually you just walk up to the counter and ask her to heal your Pokemon

Herdanos wrote:Do any of you know how to experience joy

I do. Galaxy supremacy

It's a great game, with a HUGE amount of charm and imagination.

It's a game which has imperfect movement mechanics compared to other entries in the series.


Both of these things are allowed to be true

Get that nuance out of here. Don't you know this is the Internet?

shy guy 64 wrote:

Herdanos wrote:Do any of you know how to experience joy

Usually you just walk up to the counter and ask her to heal your Pokemon

ITSMILNER wrote:

shy guy 64 wrote:

Herdanos wrote:Do any of you know how to experience joy

Usually you just walk up to the counter and ask her to heal your Pokemon

Thank goodness someone got that

Jenuall wrote:It's a great game, with a HUGE amount of charm and imagination.

It's a game which has imperfect movement mechanics compared to other entries in the series.


Both of these things are allowed to be true

Sure but I disagree on your use of the term imperfect because this implies that there is a perfect set of movement mechanics present in another platformer, and all other games are therefore inferior if they don't match this frame-by-frame.

I suppose it is true that Mario's movement feels different in Galaxy to Odyssey*, but that's entirely because the environments you navigate are incomparable. I suppose I would cite the Gamecube versions of Super Monkey Ball here: you think you're moving the ball, but really you need to think that you're moving the environment that the ball rests within. While that isn't quite the case with Galaxy, hopefully the point kind of stands, i.e.: the weighting of the player character is adjusted depending on its surroundings in order to achieve maximum satisfying gamefeel. It's designed to make you enjoy navigating the levels; it isn't designed to make you think "oh, Mario handles the same way as he did before! How satisfying."

The best example I can think of (without replaying the game!) are those levels which involve switching between tiny planets, and how the game can always identify the difference between you (well, Mario, I suppose) jumping in order to traverse the planet you're currently on (say to stomp a Goomba or avoid a ledge) and you jumping in order to break free of the gravitational pull of that planet and access another planet "overhead". Obviously Mario's mechanics have been adjusted from, say, Sunshine, in order to make that possible - but they've been adjusted in a way that feels exactly right when you're navigating the levels within.

*I didn't really give it too much thought before this; I was too busy enjoying the game as I played it
*Also, his movement also feels different in Odyssey to SM64!

Did ... did you not... read my post?

I covered this. My whole point is that I understand why they adjusted things - it's a different gameplay proposition to something like SM64 or Sunshine - but whilst the changes are understandable in the context it doesn't mean I like them, or think that they are as a good an interpretation of Mario movement as something like Odyssey's Mario is for his game. Galaxy does not feel as good to play because of how Mario handles - the aforementioned "claggyness" of his movement, the way things don't flow as well, the movement lock where they attempt to compensate for the crazy geometry in a way that hinders player input, the way it occasionally fails to understand Mario's orientation and movement with respect to the object he is on and so he spins in little circles etc.

It fundamentally doesn't "feel exactly right" - quite the opposite.

When Mario fails to jump/move in the direction I am telling him because the movement lock is overriding my stick input that breaks my connection to the game and makes me feel less satisfied that I do in 64 or Odyssey.

Is it a deal breaker? Of course not! Galaxy remains a superb game with LOTS to recommend it. But it undeniably makes me feel less enjoyment in the moment to moment control of the character than I do in other games.

deathofcows wrote:
Hard agree. You think we all like Mario games for similar reasons, then everyone goes loving Galaxy despite it feeling stoppy and stodgy like it hasn't yet learned joined up writing.

But Jezo knows.

Herdanos wrote:

Jenuall wrote:It's a great game, with a HUGE amount of charm and imagination.

It's a game which has imperfect movement mechanics compared to other entries in the series.


Both of these things are allowed to be true

Sure but I disagree on your use of the term imperfect because this implies that there is a perfect set of movement mechanics present in another platformer, and all other games are therefore inferior if they don't match this frame-by-frame.

I suppose it is true that Mario's movement feels different in Galaxy to Odyssey*, but that's entirely because the environments you navigate are incomparable. I suppose I would cite the Gamecube versions of Super Monkey Ball here: you think you're moving the ball, but really you need to think that you're moving the environment that the ball rests within. While that isn't quite the case with Galaxy, hopefully the point kind of stands, i.e.: the weighting of the player character is adjusted depending on its surroundings in order to achieve maximum satisfying gamefeel. It's designed to make you enjoy navigating the levels; it isn't designed to make you think "oh, Mario handles the same way as he did before! How satisfying."

The best example I can think of (without replaying the game!) are those levels which involve switching between tiny planets, and how the game can always identify the difference between you (well, Mario, I suppose) jumping in order to traverse the planet you're currently on (say to stomp a Goomba or avoid a ledge) and you jumping in order to break free of the gravitational pull of that planet and access another planet "overhead". Obviously Mario's mechanics have been adjusted from, say, Sunshine, in order to make that possible - but they've been adjusted in a way that feels exactly right when you're navigating the levels within.

*I didn't really give it too much thought before this; I was too busy enjoying the game as I played it
*Also, his movement also feels different in Odyssey to SM64!

Despite what my Hot Take suggests I personally didn't actually try to pay attention and find fault. I wanted to love Galaxy like the rest! I guess it comes down to the small venn-diagram mismatches where we all agree we like Mario but for slightly different reasons (which Galaxy for example highlights).

Some might have more of a lean towards how Mario fits with his levels like a key that unlocks as you go - like a kinetic puzzle game. I probably lean more towards how he moves in himself. I've said it many times before but I keep SM64 downloaded on Switch just to have available to quickly run around Peach's Castle courtyard which even with just trees and flats I find more inherently pleasing and satisfying than whole levels in Galaxy - just because of the just-so of his movement.

I won't reiterate more because I already wrote a whole article about it once!

But with Galaxy I tried thrice (I think) to engage and loved lots about it but the core movement left me cold in the way it felt slightly distant, detached, stilted, just-off-centre - in a way that makes it land flat for me (never mind the excessive menu-y tally faff each time you go into/out of a level!). It was only when I tried to pay attention to work out what was going on that I realised stuff like:

and whilst I can appreciate Galaxy as a wondrous toybox of delights and surprise, of singular courses designed around focussed ideas, I flinch every time Galaxy Mario's Long Jump stops dead on arrival. Or he drops like lead when you run off an edge, or spins his way to stillness with attacks. And it's not just that the Triple Jump's animation and timing feels a bit flat - the acceleration too even, like he's being hoisted up on theatre wires - I also don't like the Squee! sounds that accompanies it

(from old article)

Anyway!

Another case of different gaming Personality Types and Value Preferences methinks!

Jenuall wrote:Did ... did you not... read my post?

Yes of course! I think. Maybe not all of it. I definitely read the part about shitting from a great height...

deathofcows wrote:Another case of different gaming Personality Types and Value Preferences methinks!

What a sensible, civil thing to say.

Herdanos wrote:

Jenuall wrote:Did ... did you not... read my post?

Yes of course! I think. Maybe not all of it. I definitely read the part about shitting from a great height...

How very dare you!

It definitely is a preferences thing though, what makes or breaks a platformer is going to differ for all of us and each element will be given more or less weighting in the overall make up of a games quality.

Player movement and control is huge for me personally - it's why the super expressive and flowing, changing-together-of-moves Mario from Odyssey is my favourite.

It's also a big factor in why I don't rate something like Banjo Kazooie - for me that is not a character or moveset that I think is very expressive, flexible or fun to mess around with. It's all very "mushy" feeling, and a lot of the moves are gated behind action plates which dictate when you can and can't do something which is like movement platformer kryptonite IMO

deathofcows wrote:!

Jenuall wrote:!

I know this isn't necessarily the thread for it, but given we're now talking about character movement physics in platformers...

Have either of you ever played Jet Set Radio (/ Future)? And if so, what did you make of it?

Herdanos wrote:

deathofcows wrote:!

Jenuall wrote:!

I know this isn't necessarily the thread for it, but given we're now talking about character movement physics in platformers...

Have either of you ever played Jet Set Radio (/ Future)? And if so, what did you make of it?

I played and enjoyed both Jet Set Radio games back in the day, although I can't say I have particularly strong memories of them now in terms of the mechanics. I did enjoy the flow of them - finding grinding routes around the levels etc.

That's really interesting. I found the floaty jump arch and bizarre latch mechanics of the characters' blades really difficult to get used to.

I mean I don't really categorise JSR in the same bracket as things like Mario personally. My head is in a different place when playing that kind of game, it's triggering different parts of my brain etc. and so I'm not really critiquing them against the same set of criteria

Herdanos wrote:

deathofcows wrote:!

Jenuall wrote:!

I know this isn't necessarily the thread for it, but given we're now talking about character movement physics in platformers...

Have either of you ever played Jet Set Radio (/ Future)? And if so, what did you make of it?

Very sorry this reply so slow!

But no, I've not played either I'm afraid.

I probably Would like them though but who knows given what you said above about floaty jump etc. But I can enjoy different kinds of movement feels even when more heavy or staccato etc. But for whatever reason the Galaxy one falls and feels flat for me.

In terms of skating/skating-adjacent though, Olli Olli World is probably an all timer for me for flow, sheer momentum fun and swing-iosity as you fly from lips and rails etc.

And Penny's is my most played game this year for it's movement chaining and yo-yo fling.

But even if less smooth maybe I'd still enjoy Jet Sets for the exploration and the attention to environments and routes who knows!

Not quite the same but I remember that (?2008) Prince of Persia game that always felt very restricted and directed but for whatever reason (the wall running? The swing of that partner double-jump?) I still liked