#NewGamesJournalism: Lauren Wainwright sacked.

Has this been posted?



This guy is fantastic. He got the bit about Rab being let go wrong, but he probably didn't know all the facts when he recorded it on Friday.

Skippy wrote:

Skarjo wrote:As has been said, at the moment, PR and games journalism seems to be one big back-patting circle-jerk of self-protectionism.

Not overly-dramatic at all

This whole thing has gone bat-shit insane.

It's alright, I called the whole thing terrifying ten pages back.

It is Halloween.

Meh. There's a definate feel of "circling the wagons" - from the women's initial "I'm gonna use my law module" to the response from many different people since.

The article's not half as indicative as people's reactions to it. I suspect that defensive approach is just egging some attackers on.

Hell even Rudderless was trying to get people to move on (before deciding he didn't know enough to get involved)



(Edit - I should say I'm following this across several different forums, so apologies if this is posted and I don't know what, if anything, preceeded these tweets.)

Frankly the most puzzling thing is why anyone would pay that woman for such childish writing.

It's amazing how this has escalated. Florence's original article was about how some journalists were getting a little too cosy with PRs and forgetting themselves on occasion. He was basically saying "Hey, you're meant to be journalists be more careful next time".

That has since turned into web-dwelling gamers condemning all games journalists for not being Woodward and strawberry floating Bernstein!

I apologised to Rab for that privately. The whole thing about 'moving on' was misconstrued. It was aimed to stop all the talk on Twitter from writers that was fanning the flames. Then I proceeded to do just that myself, albeit entirely unintentionally.

if you don't see how this is affecting perception of your job and role in the industry then I think you're being hugely naive. Further to that, whilst I would shy away from the word responsibility, I think it's absolutely in your own best interests to comment, clarify and expose.

I do see how this is affecting perception of jobs and roles of writers in the industry, and have discussed that in this very thread. I have commented on the Wainwright/Florence incident. I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to expose beyond talking about my own experiences, which I have, both on here and on GAF.

Skippy wrote:It's amazing how this has escalated. Florence's original article was about how some journalists were getting a little too cosy with PRs and forgetting themselves on occasion. He was basically saying "Hey, you're meant to be journalists be more careful next time".

That has since turned into web-dwelling gamers condemning all games journalists for not being Woodward and strawberry floating Bernstein!

I wouldn't say that.

But "journalists" (to use a vague generalisation and not to imply it applies to them all) got defensive, and then people hit back.

From the girl going "I'm gonna sue" and then making easily disproven statements about her history to the bloke saying "Yeah, but I gave my PS3 to charity this afternoon as I always intended " they've played pretty much a master class in how not to handle this sort of event.

Skarjo wrote:As has been said, at the moment, PR and games journalism seems to be one big back-patting circle-jerk of self-protectionism.

If you can point out exactly where I've protected a PR, please do.

Hexx wrote:From the girl going "I'm gonna sue" to the bloke saying "Yeah, but I gave my PS3 to charity this afternoon as I always intended " they've played pretty much a master class in how not to handle this sort of event.

I agree. They could really use some training in public relations...

Maybe they know someone in PR who could help them. I'm sure they could do something in return.

rudderless wrote:

Skarjo wrote:As has been said, at the moment, PR and games journalism seems to be one big back-patting circle-jerk of self-protectionism.

If you can point out exactly where I've protected a PR, please do.

Make your mind up. One second you're totally not involved, now you're taking responsibility for all games journalists.

Skarjo wrote:

rudderless wrote:

Skarjo wrote:As has been said, at the moment, PR and games journalism seems to be one big back-patting circle-jerk of self-protectionism.

If you can point out exactly where I've protected a PR, please do.

Make your mind up. One second you're totally not involved, now you're taking responsibility for all games journalists.

I'm not taking responsibility. You're the one tarring everyone with the same brush. What's with the hostility? I can't remember ever being anything other than completely civil with you on here.

rudderless wrote:

Skarjo wrote:

rudderless wrote:

Skarjo wrote:As has been said, at the moment, PR and games journalism seems to be one big back-patting circle-jerk of self-protectionism.

If you can point out exactly where I've protected a PR, please do.

Make your mind up. One second you're totally not involved, now you're taking responsibility for all games journalists.

I'm not taking responsibility. You're the one tarring everyone with the same brush. What's with the hostility? I can't remember ever being anything other than completely civil with you on here.

Eh? I'm not being hostile, or at least I'm not trying to be.

I'm trying to illustrate that games journalism has always had a poor perception amongst gamers, with extremely few respected writers and publications, and there have been countless scandals of conflicts between writers and PRs to a degree that I simply can't see mirrored in other media.

So when something like this happens, it's another kick in the face for the journalistic community. This isnt just criticism of a few people wanting PS3s, this is criticism of a whole community who sinply appear to be too in bed with the PR sode of the industry. Now, if it were me being criticised for, essentially, being a bought and paid for shill without a shred of integrity nor professionalism, I would want to be defending myself vehemently. Instead, and this is not a dig at you, we seem to be seeing a lot of milling around, soft words and a seeming lack of desire to be seen criticising the wrong people.

As has been said, PRs should be terrified of journalists, but all that seems to be going on here is a bit of a boys club, PR and journos alike, closing ranks and waiting for the whole thing to blow over.

Skarjo wrote:As has been said, PRs should be terrified of journalists

Wrong. The people the PRs work for should be terrified for journalists. Journalists and PRs need each other and work together because of that.

Skarjo wrote:

rudderless wrote:

Skarjo wrote:

rudderless wrote:

Skarjo wrote:As has been said, at the moment, PR and games journalism seems to be one big back-patting circle-jerk of self-protectionism.

If you can point out exactly where I've protected a PR, please do.

Make your mind up. One second you're totally not involved, now you're taking responsibility for all games journalists.

I'm not taking responsibility. You're the one tarring everyone with the same brush. What's with the hostility? I can't remember ever being anything other than completely civil with you on here.

Eh? I'm not being hostile, or at least I'm not trying to be.

I'm trying to illustrate that games journalism has always had a poor perception amongst gamers, with extremely few respected writers and publications, and there have been countless scandals of conflicts between writers and PRs to a degree that I simply can't see mirrored in other media.

Writers covering all media get invited to lavish press events and pocket plenty of swag. It's not just the games media. I agree that the hashtag stuff was dodgy. I never at any point denied that.

So when something like this happens, it's another kick in the face for the journalistic community. This isnt just criticism of a few people wanting PS3s, this is criticism of a whole community who sinply appear to be too in bed with the PR sode of the industry.

That's fair enough.

Now, if it were me being criticised for, essentially, being a bought and paid for shill without a shred of integrity nor professionalism, I would want to be defending myself vehemently. Instead, and this is not a dig at you, we seem to be seeing a lot of milling around, soft words and a seeming lack of desire to be seen criticising the wrong people.

I can't speak for everyone, but I have little experience of dealing with PRs, so that's why I can't really contribute much more than I already have. Often what makes things look worse is perfectly innocent - the Kotaku COD piece I imagine being a case in point. The games media is reliant on advertising from the industry it critiques - without those ads, those sites would shut down. But the same goes for other media, and yet they're not under the same scrutiny, which seems a little strange.

As has been said, PRs should be terrified of journalists

I don't necessarily think that's the case. It depends on the type of journalism you do. Most sites/publications that report on games are like the game equivalent of Total Film or Empire - I wouldn't say PRs are terrified of those magazines, would you? Perhaps, as I've already said, there's room for more sites that are like newspapers reporting on the industry. Though already you do get some sites that cover the industry as a business, like GI.biz or Gamasutra. I would say those places are a more likely home for this kind of story.

Gaming as a medium is evolving; so is its coverage, and with any evolutionary process mistakes will be made. This is a pretty strawberry floating massive one, all told, and will lead to changes. I can understand the anger, but all that's happened so far when someone else has dared to throw their hat in the ring is that one more scapegoat is added to the pile. At the moment some reasonable points are being made - and rest assured, they are being listened to - but a lot of them are getting drowned out by a crowd that is baying for blood.

Forgive me for not quoting, sorting it all out on a phone is a pain.

Some very good points and I agree with a lot of what you're saying, however, a lot of this whole debacle is still gaming specific.

For instance, whilst of course it's true that movie critics probably still get wined and dined with the best of them, the degree to which they are in bed with each other is less obvious. Articles and twitter feeds seem much less steeped in name-checking and back-patting as with some of the gaming journalists. Indeed, the only occasion where a movie- goer has walked that fine line between fandom and being a PR mouthpiece that I can remember is Harry of Aint it Cool News, and although it made AICN a go- to for exclusive info, the quality of journalism and objective opinion was always in doubt.

You're right, the industry is dependent on advertising because it operates for a readerbase that don't want to pay for anything. However, an industry that is meant to be giving open and honest criticism and feedback to the people who pay their wages is always going to be one that is a victim of these kinds of accusations. Honestly? It's a difficult situation, and I'm not going to pretend there's an easy solution. However, I will say that until the journalistic community is financially independent from those they should be criticising then their objectivity will always be in question, and such idiotic behaviour as the PS3 grab, as you have rightly pointed out, should be well left alone.

I stand by that journalists, as critics of the industry, should not be buddies with the people who's job it is to propagate the best possible angle of the industry. The two groups are fundamentally opposed in goal and should not be easy bedfellows. If they are, quite frankly, someone isn't doing their job right.

I agree that there should be clearer defined boundaries.

And if that's what we get then good. What the industry actually needs though is a move towards financial independence and being significantly less in pocket and pay of the PR side of the industry. If that means fewer free sites and more paid-for content then maybe that's the price we as consumers will have to pay for quality, independent journalism. But if we want a journalistic community with the same integrity, honesty and reliability as for other media then maybe we need to be honest about how that would be achieved; and it won't be from demanding free content from people who end up being paid by the advertisers of the products we want those journalists to criticise.

There is a fundamental conflict of interest when a journalistic community is paid for by the advertisers of the industry they are supposed to be critiquing and it is this that must be addressed.

You can't run a games reviews website and have advertising from games companies. You can't make a living promoting the material you're supposed to be critical of. The majority of those involved in this industry make me cringe, giddy children rattling off utter nonsense, it really doesn't surprise me they were attempting to blag free PS3s. I'd be much more worried about the fallout and what might happen if they weren't all so bloody inane.

Lauren Wainwright has a whole lot of maturing to do.

These people should be ashamed to use the word "journalist". Amber Lyon is a journalist, Bill Dedman is a journalist, not some banana split punching out a COD review.

Ginga wrote:You can't run a games reviews website and have advertising from games companies. You can't make a living promoting the material you're supposed to be critical of.

It's almost like journalists are a sub-species totally incapable of independent thought Get a strawberry floating grip!

Ginga wrote:You can't run a games reviews website and have advertising from games companies. You can't make a living promoting the material you're supposed to be critical of.

So how do you suggest they get the money needed to run a website?