#NewGamesJournalism: Lauren Wainwright sacked.

Fatal Exception wrote:

rudderless wrote:

Fatal Exception wrote:Waaaa. Bleeding heart male feminists If he actually had standards he would avoid the whole of future publishing and not moan because his journalism isn't good enough to be in the more mature mags or websites run by them.

You mean Edge, the magazine he was employed by for several years?

Edge is pretty gash these days. When you filter out the filler in articles you could condense each page of text into about 3 sentences of actual information. I'm going to be honest though I didn't look into this guy's history, nor do I care that much.

Okay, which other mature mags or websites are you referring to? And I don't care if you don't care - the fact is, you said his journalism isn't good enough to be in these more mature mags. When it demonstrably is.

Chris, I think the issue is not with you or your friends, it's the fact the vast majority of games writers (I refuse to call them journalists on the basis the majority of them can't a) write and b)research anything themselves) don't really do anything off of their own back. They're fed information through sites like gamespress and all they do is reword whatever is thrown at them. No thought goes in to that at all, it's simple paraphrasing.

Also you can hardly blame people for not wanting to trust games writers reviews. Many of them read as if either they've been swayed by money or they haven't put more than 5 minutes into playing the damn game, let alone finish it. It's clear as day. Atleast when a Movie gets reviewed you know for sure they've sat and watched the whole thing.

Something Fishy wrote:Try to convince the masses that Analysts and Programmers aren't all wierd geeks using techno magic. It isn't happening. You'll no more convince the average person that games are worthy of a form of journalism. It's just another area that's widely sneered at.

Funny how society decides what does and doesn't have "value" though. I mean film journalism, that's seemingly OK. But games, well it's for children so it's not.

*looks at wife*

Yep, you definitely have a point there Fishy

Oh, and Jesus Rudders, calm down a bit! Even I could pick up on Fishy's tongue-in-cheek comments (and I know JUST how hard games writing is too! Christ, I'm taking a quick break from a 12hr shift today). If Falsey can't see the good writing out there, then that's ultimately his loss.

Andrew Mills wrote:

Something Fishy wrote:Try to convince the masses that Analysts and Programmers aren't all wierd geeks using techno magic. It isn't happening. You'll no more convince the average person that games are worthy of a form of journalism. It's just another area that's widely sneered at.

Funny how society decides what does and doesn't have "value" though. I mean film journalism, that's seemingly OK. But games, well it's for children so it's not.

*looks at wife*

Yep, you definitely have a point there Fishy

Oh, and Jesus Rudders, calm down a bit! Even I could pick up on Fishy's tongue-in-cheek comments (and I know JUST how hard games writing is too! Christ, I'm taking a quick break from a 12hr shift today). If Falsey can't see the good writing out there, then that's ultimately his loss.

Perhaps it should be clarified that genuinely good writing is nigh on impossible to find beneath the droves of unapologetic shite being shovelled out and lapped up.

rudderless wrote:

Something Fishy wrote:Dude I work strawberry floating hard at mine to and have for years. Doesn't stop a lot of people shitting on it blaming computers for everything they can't do and calling us geeks from hell.

Sure! But that's different to people coming into somewhere they know you frequent and banging on about how gooseberry fool your entire profession is. Imagine if you were in your favourite boozer with a load of people from your work, and someone who knows you go in there comes in and loudly says "all [whatever tech job you have] are strawberry floating rubbish"?

but so what, you have to just grow some thick skin and realise life's too short to care and you can't govern what people think. Do they matter to you? no then their opinion doesn't matter.

It's nothing to do with being thin-skinned. I read the comments threads, and see the idiocy spouted therein on a daily basis. But if I see ignorance and I'm in a place where I can defend my profession against it, damn straight I'm going to. It's not just about me, it's about a bunch of people I know and respect who work a lot harder than anyone gives them credit for. I'm not saying you don't work hard, but if you said it I doubt it would be loudly questioned wherever you went.

I used to care a lot and get really bothered people couldn't appreciate it. At some point over the last few years finally reached a point where I just couldn't give a gooseberry fool anymore. Feels a lot better not worrying about stuff you can't change.

But I want to try and challenge preconceptions. I'm not at the age yet where I've given up trying to defend the medium that I still love despite the daily challenges I face as a freelancer in a precarious climate for journalism/criticism.

Rudders you've really taken some light hearted comments about the profession far too seriously. You've project a whole level of meaning onto this that simply wasn't there.

Sadly it sounds like some fun has been made at something really personal to you and it's brought a whole load of frustration about the lack of respect fro what you do to the surface.

I mean i can take the piss out of a job and joke that it's one for man babies but I am not actually seriously commenting on the abilities and attributes of the many people in that profession who no doubt have lots to offer. A joke really doesn't always have that much behind it.

rudderless wrote:

Fatal Exception wrote:

rudderless wrote:

Fatal Exception wrote:Waaaa. Bleeding heart male feminists If he actually had standards he would avoid the whole of future publishing and not moan because his journalism isn't good enough to be in the more mature mags or websites run by them.

You mean Edge, the magazine he was employed by for several years?

Edge is pretty gash these days. When you filter out the filler in articles you could condense each page of text into about 3 sentences of actual information. I'm going to be honest though I didn't look into this guy's history, nor do I care that much.

Okay, which other mature mags or websites are you referring to? And I don't care if you don't care - the fact is, you said his journalism isn't good enough to be in these more mature mags. When it demonstrably is.

Ok, I guess "the article in question was poor enough to be in CVG" would be a more accurate description.

Falsey wrote:

Andrew Mills wrote:

Something Fishy wrote:Try to convince the masses that Analysts and Programmers aren't all wierd geeks using techno magic. It isn't happening. You'll no more convince the average person that games are worthy of a form of journalism. It's just another area that's widely sneered at.

Funny how society decides what does and doesn't have "value" though. I mean film journalism, that's seemingly OK. But games, well it's for children so it's not.

*looks at wife*

Yep, you definitely have a point there Fishy

Oh, and Jesus Rudders, calm down a bit! Even I could pick up on Fishy's tongue-in-cheek comments (and I know JUST how hard games writing is too! Christ, I'm taking a quick break from a 12hr shift today). If Falsey can't see the good writing out there, then that's ultimately his loss.

Perhaps it should be clarified that genuinely good writing is nigh on impossible to find beneath the droves of unapologetic shite being shovelled out and lapped up.

Oh I agree that too many people have leaped up to become games 'journos' overnight with the advent of blogs and social networking sites (leading to a pile of gooseberry fool being written, just like how the App Store has had a ton of shite apps released on it as barriers to entry have lowered substantially), but maybe you should be more selective in your searches? I only read a few game websites properly and have recently been reading more of Gamesindustry.biz and similar sites for a more 'internal' look at the industry. Quality - for me - has been more that good enough, I've just picked my sources more carefully, that's all.

Falsey wrote:Perhaps it should be clarified that genuinely good writing is nigh on impossible to find beneath the droves of unapologetic shite being shovelled out and lapped up.

Nigh-on impossible? Bullshit. You are some piece of work. "Ooh, another person who writes about games! I can slag them off some more!"

Anyway, apologies to Fishy for misreading the tone of his post - I was conflating his words with those of Falsey which came immediately before. Hard to see a shift in tone, especially as it initially seemed to be a serious response to Proto.

And Proto - if these writers don't always respond to reader suggestions/comments, it's because most of us are hardwired to think that readers hate us, because that seems to be the default position. As evidenced by Falsey here, and innumerable comments threads. I reply to a lot of people, but then I spend far too much time on Twitter (though it's been an enormously useful tool for networking purposes). Those with less time to do so don't would understandably rather discuss matters with friends as a first priority before addressing readers. It's not because anyone thinks they're above responding. I agree that there are cliquey elements within the industry, but that's not everyone, and not even the majority.

Andrew Mills wrote:

Something Fishy wrote:Try to convince the masses that Analysts and Programmers aren't all wierd geeks using techno magic. It isn't happening. You'll no more convince the average person that games are worthy of a form of journalism. It's just another area that's widely sneered at.

Funny how society decides what does and doesn't have "value" though. I mean film journalism, that's seemingly OK. But games, well it's for children so it's not.

*looks at wife*

Yep, you definitely have a point there Fishy

Oh, and Jesus Rudders, calm down a bit! Even I could pick up on Fishy's tongue-in-cheek comments (and I know JUST how hard games writing is too! Christ, I'm taking a quick break from a 12hr shift today). If Falsey can't see the good writing out there, then that's ultimately his loss.

Cheers Andrew.

I really don't think writing thousands of words for a well researched piece on games is any less of a slog than writing a well researched piece on the challenges facing schools in implementing the new Computing Curriculum (for instance) both no doubt require research, analysis, a lot of thought and a lot of time.

Andrew Mills wrote:

Falsey wrote:

Andrew Mills wrote:

Something Fishy wrote:Try to convince the masses that Analysts and Programmers aren't all wierd geeks using techno magic. It isn't happening. You'll no more convince the average person that games are worthy of a form of journalism. It's just another area that's widely sneered at.

Funny how society decides what does and doesn't have "value" though. I mean film journalism, that's seemingly OK. But games, well it's for children so it's not.

*looks at wife*

Yep, you definitely have a point there Fishy

Oh, and Jesus Rudders, calm down a bit! Even I could pick up on Fishy's tongue-in-cheek comments (and I know JUST how hard games writing is too! Christ, I'm taking a quick break from a 12hr shift today). If Falsey can't see the good writing out there, then that's ultimately his loss.

Perhaps it should be clarified that genuinely good writing is nigh on impossible to find beneath the droves of unapologetic shite being shovelled out and lapped up.

Oh I agree that too many people have leaped up to become games 'journos' overnight with the advent of blogs and social networking sites (leading to a pile of gooseberry fool being written, just like how the App Store has had a ton of shite apps released on it as barriers to entry have lowered substantially), but maybe you should be more selective in your searches? I only read a few game websites properly and have recently been reading more of Gamesindustry.biz and similar sites for a more 'internal' look at the industry. Quality - for me - has been more that good enough, I've just picked my sources more carefully, that's all.

The complaint from me is that what good stuff there may be is so difficult to find nowadays, Id rather just whack open Arstechnica or Pistonheads or something where they dont take on braindead trolls for their opinion pieces, nor do they list the top ten asses in gaming or batter me around the face with ads for plastic figmas.

GI.biz is going downhill They are going more opinion blog style and it's irritating many of the readers (myself included).

We actually had a back and forth with one of the writers in the comments section a few weeks back where I think they said they are trying to become more 'entertaining'. What this means is less cold hard facts and more traffic driving opinions dressed up as 'news'.

Cheers Rudders, and back to you. It was a bit acerbic on my part though, I understand where you're coming from.

Something Fishy wrote:I really don't think writing thousands of words for a well researched piece on games is any less of a slog than writing a well researched piece on the challenges facing schools in implementing the new Computing Curriculum (for instance) both no doubt require research, analysis, a lot of thought and a lot of time.

Sure, but you don't have to do that every day just to make ends meet. The pressures that most games writers are under is unbelievable. I'd say games critics, as a general rule, write far more than critics of other media and for less money - and that's without taking into account the time it takes to play a game compared with reading a book or watching a film. This isn't a 'I work harder than you' thing, but no one's saying you don't work hard - that's the difference. People think games writers just sit in their underpants all day at home and play games.

Falsey wrote:The complaint from me is that what good stuff there may be is so difficult to find nowadays, Id rather just whack open Arstechnica or Pistonheads or something where they dont take on braindead trolls for their opinion pieces, nor do they list the top ten asses in gaming or batter me around the face with ads for plastic figmas.

You are an ignorant buffoon if you can't find a games site that doesn't do those sort of pieces.

and the need to keep churning it out under that pressure might be why too much stuff is rushed and not so good hence the likes of me finding a lot of poor quality (ermm.. bollocks i think i said )

When you do find some good articles though they really stand out as good and I have read several this year after following reteets from friends (i let them filter the crap for me now )

rudderless wrote:You are some piece of work. "Ooh, another person who writes about games! I can slag them off some more!"

Ah you caught me. My crusade against an entire profession has been rumbled.

Something Fishy wrote:and the need to keep churning it out under that pressure might be why too much stuff is rushed and not so good hence the likes of me finding a lot of poor quality (ermm.. bollocks i think i said )

When you do find some good articles though they really stand out as good and I have read several this year after following reteets from friends (i let them filter the crap for me now )

No, there's a lot of rushed, mistake-filled stuff. I'm not denying that. But there's a lot (and I mean that - a lot) of really good stuff out there, too, and a lot of it goes ignored.

Falsey wrote:

rudderless wrote:You are some piece of work. "Ooh, another person who writes about games! I can slag them off some more!"

Ah you caught me. My crusade against an entire profession has been rumbled.

I don't think you're on a crusade. I just think your job/life is so dull that you're forced to liven up your day by being a dick to people on the internet.

I was going to say something about too much stuff biased toward specific brands and not entirely truthful because of it.

But then I thought about it and realised that is true of anything. Political commentators, Education Experts , pretty much any kind of writer comes in with a certain world view that colours their view and if writing for a certain audience will play to the tastes of that audience and say things that audience wants to hear.

rudderless wrote:

Falsey wrote:

rudderless wrote:You are some piece of work. "Ooh, another person who writes about games! I can slag them off some more!"

Ah you caught me. My crusade against an entire profession has been rumbled.

I don't think you're on a crusade. I just think your job/life is so dull that you're forced to liven up your day by being a dick to people on the internet.

Ok, would you care to link me to one of your more recent articles?

Id genuinely care to see what you believe a top notch article is, I might even become a devotee if its good enough.